In this episode, we focus on the third stage of grief, anger, and bargaining, sharing our personal stories and emotions related to this stage. Caitlin reflects on her frustration and anger during her cancer treatments while pregnant, as well as her feelings of bargaining and trying to regain control. We also mention the birth of our son Leo and the challenges and trauma they faced during this time. As always, we end with a message of strength and resilience for listeners going through similar experiences.
In this episode, we focus on the third stage of grief, anger, and bargaining, sharing our personal stories and emotions related to this stage. Caitlin reflects on her frustration and anger during her cancer treatments while pregnant, as well as her feelings of bargaining and trying to regain control. We also mention the birth of our son Leo and the challenges and trauma they faced during this time. As always, we end with a message of strength and resilience for listeners going through similar experiences.
Going Through It Episode 03. Anger & Bargaining: 7 Stages of Grief
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Caitlin: [00:00:00]
[00:00:01] Introduction and Disclaimer
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Caitlin: Something to note, we are not healthcare providers or professionals. We are, however, two people that live through a monumental medical event and find comfort in sharing what worked for us to others. These are our experiences, and it is in no way meant to treat or diagnose the general public. Always listen to your body and always listen to your doctors for guidance.
All right, let's get into it.
[00:00:28] Our Personal Journey with Cancer
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Caitlin: I'm Caitlin Rouse and I'm
Kevin: Kevin Adams.
Caitlin: We are going through it.
Hello. Hello podcast listeners. I'm Caitlin Rouse and he is Kevin Adams. Welcome back to going through it. This is a podcast dedicated to unpacking how we have navigated a very chaotic year together. We are talking about cancer diagnosis while pregnant, cancer treatments, surgeries, and [00:01:00] now new parenthood.
[00:01:02] Understanding the Third Stage of Grief: Anger and Bargaining
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Caitlin: This week, we're talking about the third stage of grief, anger and bargaining. Choosingtherapy. com sources that the anger stage could include anger at the extent of pain, anger that life has changed. Anger that managing grief feels difficult, anger that the world suddenly feels different, empty, unsafe, or even lonely.
The bargaining stage involved trying to regain a false sense of control after feeling helplessness and displaced anger. Regina Josal, PhD, says, quote, We engage in a type of mental gymnastics to try to undo something that we can't undo. End quote. This stage provides a grieving person with time to emotionally come to terms with a loss.
Feelings that may accompany the anger and bargaining stages of grief include the following. Frustration, resentment, rage, hopeful, anxiety paired with anger, and fear. [00:02:00]
[00:02:00] Personal Experiences with Anger and Bargaining
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Caitlin: This one was very relevant for me while enduring all of my surgeries. For sake of our timeline, I'll unpack all those surgeries and recovery in another episode.
What I will share now is that for someone who had never endured a procedure or a surgery prior to this experience, then enduring three major surgeries within five months consecutively in all the pain of healing, it did make me angry. What also made me angry was that I was enduring these treatments pregnant.
[00:02:31] The Harrowing Reality of Cancer Treatments
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Caitlin: The next two AC treatments that followed, they hit me like a ton of bricks. Here I am, eight months pregnant, lost all my hair, held up in bed because I can't move, because I think I'll pass out or I'll vomit, and I have to go through it. Those next two treatments, they were rough. Every time I got them, I'd feel okay leaving the hospital, but without fail, about three hours later, I started to [00:03:00] really feel it.
It's really weird to describe now, but the only thing I can equate it to is becoming incredibly intoxicated within 60 minutes. It was almost a feeling of, okay, hold on, here we go. I could 100 percent feel it coming on. It was always very scary because as I could feel it coming on, I didn't know how bad it was going to be.
[00:03:25] The Support System: Kevin's Perspective
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Caitlin: The second one though, Kevin supported me through that time like no other. We've seen each other in some not great situations, having too much to drink, getting stomach issues, sick, but no matter how bad we felt, there was always some aspect of control over it. Even though I'm so hungover, I'm only gonna let you see this amount of sickness.
This experience was not that. I'm very pregnant. I have not a stitch of hair on [00:04:00] my body, and I'm just riding around in bed in so much pain.
[00:04:05] The Physical and Emotional Toll of Cancer Treatments
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Caitlin: I am so lucky that I didn't get horrible bouts of nausea, which is often very much associated with this treatment. However, being so pregnant, I experienced acid reflux for the very first time in my life.
Another side effect of this cancer treatment is also acid reflux. I had acid reflux times a hundred. So the nights of this treatment, other than feeling an immense amount of pain all over my body, The acid reflux was so bad that I was just gagging all night in intervals. I didn't eat anything. I didn't drink anything because I knew it was just gonna come back up.
And that's where Kevin sat and slept on the floor at the foot of our bed all night. Because it was happening, because it was happening, if I had to guess now, I'd say [00:05:00] five or six times every hour, nonstop, and you would just run up and down the steps all night with bowls of stomach bile, essentially. Again, I didn't know you could love anybody outside your family like this before.
The way you saw me and wanted to show up for me, I'll never forget for the rest of my life. I couldn't have been alone those nights, so I know I wouldn't have made it without you. This is what landed me in the Oncology Urgent Care every day after these treatments. Sometimes the next day, sometimes in the very early hours of the next day.
Because I couldn't keep down any water or any food, I would immediately get very worried about Leo in my belly and if he was okay, given the amount of dehydration and the hell that my body was going through. So, after nights of no rest, we then had to head to the hospital, where we would sit for at [00:06:00] least, God, what was it, do you remember?
Kevin: Six hours, sometimes. And sometimes it was like three. We always had to wait to be seen. And then we had to wait to get you into a room. And then you have to wait for them to actually come in and evaluate you because they do the same thing every time. And then eventually you would just get an IV and you'd sit for an hour or so for that and you'd get something to eat.
It was usually, it was definitely like a half day event.
Caitlin: At least, I feel like. I feel like there were days that we'd get there at 5am in the morning and be there until 4pm at night. That
Kevin: did happen one time, but I think normally we were back by like 2.
Caitlin: I just remember you'd sleep in the chair while I was hooked up to a new machine, waiting to try and drink some water or maybe even eat a cracker.
During these trips we'd also get to listen to Leo's heartbeat confirming that he was alive and well. It was always
Kevin: good. Yeah.
Caitlin: Strong baby. [00:07:00] Resilient, comes to mind. So, after these treatments and after the recovery days from the treatments, it took me What about a full week, almost two weeks to feel back to myself.
And then just as I started to feel a little bit better, just as I could start to regain some of my energy, a little bit of my vibrancy would come back. And then on that third week, I'd have to go back and do it all over again. Kevin, I think you said it was like watching me be tortured. I'm actually
Kevin: thinking about it right now.
Yeah. It's something that, there's a fair amount of trauma attached to it. I'm sure for you as well, but yeah, just knowing that you'd come home and then we'd be on watch for the reflux, hopefully it wasn't that bad, [00:08:00] but then the next day you'd be totally wiped out. And then. They were always on Fridays, so by like Monday you'd be a little better, Tuesday a little better, Wednesday a little bit better.
Caitlin: It always to me felt like night one was, that was, that was always hell. Yeah. That was the worst. And then by day two, it was like recovery from night one.
Kevin: Right. Yeah. That's true. Cause we had, we always had to, you always had to recover from. The first night, it wasn't just like the recovery from the treatment, it was like everything that came with it and going to the hospital, how God, like, it's, that's what I'm saying about the trauma part of it.
A lot of it's just blocked, stuffed back there. It's interesting because just like you, you mentioned in the last episode, a lot of this is opening wounds that you're desperately trying to close and, um, I don't know me, myself [00:09:00] personally, like most people having to endure trauma, like. I've got a pretty good, we'll call it threshold, that kind of just shoves everything back there so that you can function.
Really, really decent at compartmentalizing things that are traumatic. And it's to my detriment because things come up just like this. It's all like flooding back and I really get a feeling for just, how? How fucked up it was like, just how horrible it was to see you so sick. And then you always wanted to push the envelope.
So by the end of the next week, you'd be trying to cook dinner and you'd be so upset because you just couldn't be up that long. Like you couldn't, you couldn't do it. You couldn't be. Running around and trying to take care of Leo and trying to be a mom and just try to do everything you wanted to so bad, but you finally just go down and then a couple of days after you'd be [00:10:00] almost back to a point, like you said, where you were vibrant and you just like, okay, you look better and you could tell you felt better and it'd be like, all right, we got to go back to treatment.
And you start all over again. It's sick. It's fucking sick.
Every three weeks I had to watch you literally pump radioactive poison into your veins. It's to the point like this, this stuff, they literally call the red devil. Because it just, it
Caitlin: just, Oh yeah, that's what they call AC
Kevin: treatment. Yeah, like it looks like, it looks and behaves that way. Like it's, Oh man, I couldn't use your toilet because they're like, if you get this on you, there might be tissue damage.
Right.
Caitlin: Yeah. Yeah.
Kevin: So, so watch your friend and your partner literally get poisoned [00:11:00] every three weeks. It's, it's
Caitlin: traumatizing. Yeah, and just to go back to what you were saying about me wanting so desperately to cling to some sort of normalcy, right, and I would start to be like, well, I'm just gonna do a load of laundry.
And this is where I think the anger comes in, because I was so angry, I think, within myself that I couldn't show up, even just a little bit, right? It's really hard, I think, to identify with going through something like this if you have never experienced it yourself. But imagine just living your life, like your normal life, and you get up every day, maybe you have a routine in the morning, maybe you have a routine at work when you come home from work at night, whatever it is.
And then just imagine being the sickest you've ever been. So let's say you have the flu, let's say you're, you know, you have a stomach virus or something and you're in bed and you can't move, but [00:12:00] you know, ultimately you're going to recover. Like you're going to get better, but imagine feeling like that and that goes on for days and then weeks.
And then you start to wonder, am I going to get better? Where's the upswing? Well, I guess I have to trick my brain into saying that I'm better. So I'm going to get up and I'm going to try. But then you try and you realize you can't. And it's infuriating. Welcome in, anger. I was I think I said this in the last episode, I did cross my mind a lot, like, why is this happening to me?
What did I do? Was there somebody I wronged so badly that I, this is some sort of karmic retribution? Again, it's not. These are the cards that I have been given. This is my body. This is my health. This is my life. This is the way I was pieced together. Choosingtherapy. com again. Quote, Anger can [00:13:00] be a complex emotion and is a normal reaction to grief with no specific timeline associated with its stage.
People can get stuck in an angry phase of grief if they don't understand how to deal with these feelings. When anger continues or intensifies into a repeated rageful episode. Or an intermittent explosive disorder towards people not associated with that loss. This signals that you need additional mental health and support to cope.
Although I never got there, I was definitely frustrated to say the least. I think the bargaining side of this I felt a lot more. So more insight to this bargaining stage, ChoosingTherapy. com again states. People on the bargaining side of this stage often don't find an acceptable resolution. Eventually, they recognize that the outcome that they hope for will not occur.
Trying to bargain with a higher power, another person, [00:14:00] or a system is a means of diminishing anger and moving closer to acceptance. This phase generally does not last as long as others because it eventually becomes clear that what you hope for will not happen. Reading that last line, I got goosebumps.
Not the good kind. In all of my frustration and all of my hope and all of my, at this point I can say, delusion that I was different, that it wouldn't affect me like this. I made all the right choices for my health and my life. That hope didn't come. That was not the reality of the situation. What I hoped for didn't happen, but what I got in return is something that is part of my story.
[00:14:51] The Miracle of Birth Amidst the Struggle
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Caitlin: It's something that I did against. All the odds, as cliche as it sounds, after [00:15:00] my third treatment of AC, I delivered our son.
Kevin: Hold on, hold on. You can't just glaze past that day like that. We, we, we, we need, I mean, I'm going to let you continue, but I'm just putting in a formal motion that we do a supplemental episode about the day.
That you gave birth to Leo, because I think it sums up and rounds out a lot of the things that you're talking about in this particular episode, especially when it comes to your spirit and your will to just. Fight and live and I mean that in every aspect of the words Fighting to get up every day fighting to walk across the street put makeup on Fighting to just have a nice dinner and live that day was really like god damn That was like the [00:16:00] Avengers you were definitely my superhero that day So I'm just asking I'm begging you please if you don't address it now Agree to do a supplemental episode about the day you gave birth because that was amazing.
I
Caitlin: was so scared, right? I mean, cancer or not, again, I never saw this for myself. I wasn't, I was not ready. I don't think I ever would have been ready. I don't think anybody's ready, actually, um, I don't mean to speak for an entire gender, but I, to answer your concerns, yes, I will absolutely talk about this and really unpack that day and that night perfectly because.
Our, our son Leo was born on September 11th and I remember I was going to be induced and I said, if I'm going to be induced, can we, can [00:17:00] we make it the 12th? I just, I don't know. I was. I lived through September 11th, 2001. I don't. European superstitious. It sounds silly, but I was like, if I can choose essentially, right, like I'm going to be induced.
Like that's not what I would choose to do. So let's make it the 12th and I said, okay, great. And then we went to dinner and I really, and I called it my last supper because. It was on September 11th, and I was like, this is our last night and we get to go out after this. There's going to be a baby, I guess, even though I can't picture it.
Kevin: Yeah, neither one of us have any idea what that would look
Caitlin: like. And I still, I, I was actually a little scared about this because I remember I would close my eyes and try to imagine me just giving birth or like, what? What he's going to look like and my mind would just be blank. And so given the experiences that I have already [00:18:00] gone through, I had this horrible feeling that something terrible was going to happen, but it didn't.
Something amazing happened. He arrived, they put him on my chest. He cried for like 10, 12 seconds and then just. Just started looking around and buried his face into my chest and just pawed on my chest. And he was alive and he was okay. He had so much hair on his head. Even though I had none. He came out pretty perfect.
I had a lot of anger about that day. I didn't know how I was going to deliver a baby. I couldn't believe I was going to deliver a baby. It sounds so formal, deliver a baby, like I'm pushing a human out of my body. And I just remember being so mad that all of my photos of that [00:19:00] day, I would be bald, that I would look like someone I did not recognize.
I wanted to be able to recognize myself in those photos more than anything. It still makes me mad now just talking about it.
Kevin: Yeah. And that's another thing. That I didn't realize that, yeah, when you go back and look at pictures from that day, you will definitely see the specter of cancer and the battle that you were going through.
I'm hoping that in time you find strength in this trial and you're able to look at those pictures and maybe even show them to close people or people that you really feel. That you need to speak to and let them know that it was a triumphant day. Again, you were amazing.
Caitlin: It's almost like, well, it's like the pictures, right?
Like [00:20:00] photographs. It's like having photographic evidence that this occurred, that this happens, but it's also showing people stuff like that. It's like, it's almost like showing someone a picture of me naked. It feels so vulnerable and feels so obvious. There's no hiding it, right? Like I obviously had cancer.
I was obviously sick at this time in my life. That's how I feel. Also, when we talk about photos about my license, when we moved back here, I had to get a new driver's license. I had to get a new driver's license in the middle of my treatment. So here I am and my driver's license photo, totally bald, shiny head.
And every time I pull it out, if I am going to get a bottle of wine or whatever the heck I'm doing, every time I look at that card, I'm just reminded of the worst time of my life. And like I said, it's very vulnerable feeling because there's no hiding it.
[00:20:55] Reflections on the Anger Stage of Grief
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Caitlin: I can't, I guess I could have, right? I could have put a wig [00:21:00] on.
I decided to buy a bunch of wigs and try those. Like I said, though, in the last episode, I thought. You know what? I'm just going to lean into this. I actually can pull off a shaved head pretty well. But you don't realize what you have till it's gone, right? You don't. Going through winter in the northeast with no hair is terrible.
It's very cold. Because it's not just the hair on my head. It's every everything. It's You know, those little transparent hairs that just grow all over your body as naturally as what being a mammal and a human you have, regardless of whether you realize it or not. And I'll tell you when you do realize it is when you don't have it anymore, but it's all over your body.
When you don't have that anymore and you put a shirt on, I kept saying wet lizard, like I feel like a wet, like I just, it's like no amount of. Clothing can [00:22:00] replicate the warmth or the feeling because you'll just always feel it on you. I tried to say many times in this experience that maybe if I had done X, Y, and Z, this wouldn't happen.
Again, again, this bargaining, trying to figure out how I could have changed this cataclysmic event that ultimately I had no control over. And for any listeners out there that maybe made it up until this point and are wondering, I am not religious in any way, and if I was going to be, this event would have absolutely pushed me to that, but I really have a lot of faith in my own strength.
I have a lot of faith in my spirit. I knew at the end of the day I could bargain all I wanted to, but that would not change the reality that I was living in. [00:23:00] And it sounds so easy to talk about this in retrospect. It's so easy to say how I felt and what was hard. But talking about it doesn't even begin to scratch the surface how challenging and how horrible this was.
Because when you're in it, it feels like it's never over. It feels like the finish line is light years away and some days. I even felt like, why even try because it's so far, but then I would get up, I would see the person that I love so much in my life, little being that we made, I feel like I'm rolling right into the next stage right now.
And I don't want to do that. So I'm just, I'm going to [00:24:00] pull back and just say that if you know somebody, or if you're going through an experience like this. It's okay to get angry and try to reckon with something that you don't understand. We might not understand in our lifetime. What you're doing is probably single handedly the hardest thing that you'll ever go through.
Sitting here now and being able to talk about it, what a gift. I just celebrated a birthday was a hell of a lot better than the last birthday, which I was getting chemo treatment on my birthday, but the bar is set now. So low. I can do anything. Taking a breath is like the best day. And that's what it is, right?
That's what I ultimately realized was. It's a gift. This day is a gift. Every day I open my eyes and no matter [00:25:00] what I get to do I'm still here and I can't help feeling like I have so much work to do After enduring the AC treatments, three of them while pregnant, the final one after Leo was born I think I got that fourth one like a week after he was born.
It's like no recovery time. I would then go on to receive 12 treatments. Uh, Taxol chemotherapy. This was then partnered with once every three weeks, I would receive targeted treatment of Herceptin and PERJETA. I received that every three week treatment of Herceptin and PERJETA for a full 12 months for a whole year.
I just completed my final one three weeks ago. It's another episode. And I'm so excited to share me [00:26:00] ringing that bell, celebrating that it was finally over. But this is what I'm talking about, right? Thinking of where I am in this story and this journey now, on a linear timeline, that I still had so much more to go.
This is essentially just the beginning. The Taxol was not as hard as the AC, but it, it was still chemotherapy, right? It still kept my hair from growing back. Um, still cause all sorts of heart, cardiac and gastrointestinal issues. Some that I am still dealing with today in a word, words, floral and some words, no matter where we are and no matter where I am on these stages of grief, it's always a journey.
[00:26:55] Moving Forward: The Journey Continues
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Caitlin: And sitting here now, just talking, just reliving some of this, I'm like, it's. [00:27:00] I'm angry about it all over again. Not like I was while it was happening, but I think you said something to me the other day where you said that there was some, I don't know if it was anger or resentment and like this being my story or just people in general, like just having to reflect and think about their stories and that how shitty it is that this is part of my story.
And I could absolutely absolve myself. And feel resolute, you know, take real ownership of it and say, I'm proud. This is my story. And I overcame so much if I'm really being honest, I'm still mad. I'm mad that I had over a year robbed from me and it felt. Like I can't get it back. What do you do? You go on, I go forward.
I have to, and there's so much good. There's so much work to do. There's so much to see. There's so much that I want to accomplish. I can't live in [00:28:00] the anger forever. I can't, we can't, we can't live in this anger. And so I really want to remind any listeners that if you're, if any of those listeners. Are out there facing anything remotely similar to these experiences I'm describing now, please know you are strong.
You are graceful. You really are beautiful. Even when you don't feel like it, even when you look into that mirror and you don't recognize the person staring back at you. You are truly capable of fighting through this and so much more if I can do this you can absolutely do it. I believe in you
[00:28:53] Closing Remarks and Next Episode Teaser
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Caitlin: Thank you so much for listening to going through it We will be back the week after next to unpack the fourth stage of [00:29:00] grief Depression. If you've come across this podcast and know someone else that could benefit from our experiences, please share it with them. If you'd also like to follow our journey even more, subscribe to our mailing list at we are going through it.
com. You can find us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, Amazon music, or wherever it is you listen to podcasts while you're there, please leave us your feedback with a comment and give us a five star review. It really will help us. We'll see you next Friday.